When the Milwaukee Bucks hired Doc Rivers last January, it was a homecoming for the longtime NBA coach whose retired Marquette jersey hangs from the rafters of Fiserv Forum. But it also opened a new chapter in a lesser-known relationship between Rivers and Marquette coach Shaka Smart.
The two met in 2008, when Rivers was coaching in Boston, the same year he led the Celtics to their 17th NBA championship. Smart, then an assistant coach at the University of Florida, was recruiting Rivers’ son Austin, who, like his dad decades earlier, was one of the top high school basketball players in the country. “We sat at a ton of games and talked a ton of basketball,” Rivers recalls.
Seeing Smart’s coaching and leadership up close left a strong impression on Rivers, who says he leaned on Marquette for years in his capacity as a university trustee (he served from 2005-17) to hire Smart to lead the school’s basketball program. That finally came to pass in 2021, when Smart became available after six years each at Texas and, before that, Virginia Commonwealth, where he led one of the most memorable Cinderella runs in NCAA tournament history.
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After bringing Boston its first NBA title in a quarter-century in 2008, Rivers spent seven seasons with the Los Angeles Clippers and three helming “the process” in Philadelphia. When he arrived in Milwaukee in the middle of last season, he was the Bucks’ third head coach in nine months after the firing of first-year coach Adrian Griffin and, after the previous season, 2021 NBA title coach Mike Budenholzer.
Rivers and Smart make an interesting pair. Both are sons of the Midwest – Rivers from the Chicago area, Smart from the Madison area – and relatively new to present-day Milwaukee. Rivers is an integral part of the Marquette culture; Smart is still learning it.
Rivers still has the 6-foot-4 frame of an NBA guard, and when he speaks privately, he does so with a loose, freewheeling charm and emotional depth that might surprise Bucks fans who only know the stoic, serious and tight-lipped Rivers from his regular press conferences.
Smart was also a point guard, but he’s a rail-thin 5-foot-8 (he played at Division III Kenyon College in Ohio). Still, he has a presence – friendly, earnest and engaging, smiling as he answers questions, with a quiet, thoughtful intensity. It’s easy to see why he’s regarded as an ace recruiter.
The Cream City coaching duo spoke with Milwaukee Magazine – just as often a conversation between each other as a joint interview – in the Bucks locker room in late September, just days before practices for the current season began.
The following conversation came amidst banter and shop talk – conditioning drills, plans to maybe play golf, the role of the big man in today’s game, a singular athletic play by a Marquette opponent the previous season.
Milwaukee Magazine: How did you first meet?
Shaka Smart: I was, I think, 30 years old, an assistant coach, and when I got to Florida, I was planning to be there for a long, long time. I ended up only being there for 10 months, but it was fortuitous for me that I got a chance to meet Coach and his son Austin, who was one of my favorite guys to get to know during the recruiting process. He has such an energy about him. But I’ve always tried to stay in touch with Coach Rivers without bugging him.
Doc Rivers: It’s funny because coming back right when I did, I said, “Wow, I’m going to spend a lot of time with Shaka.” And then, you know, you take a job in the middle of the season and realize there’s no time. [The Golden Eagles] were in the second half of their season, about to go to the [NCAA] tournament.
I think we had a dinner together and talked a couple times. But this year we just got back from our off time, and I think we’re going to be able to spend a lot of time together. I’m just going to come to his practices and learn and watch him work. He’s watched me work, so this time I get to watch him.
MM: What does that learning from each other look like?
SS: When coaches talk, No. 1, there’s a shared understanding that other people don’t have, and maybe even a step further as African American coaches. And then No. 2, just, you know, bouncing things off guys and asking about how to look at this, or how to look at that.
DR: Yeah, I think people think when coaches talk, we talk about plays, and that’s probably the least amount of things we talk about. For the most part, it’s about people, about how to deal with a situation – “Man, I’m having trouble with this kid or this player.” I think life is communication at the end of the day. He’s an amazing X’s and O’s coach, but he’s an amazing communicator.
I tried [to hire Smart] the first time when I was still a trustee [in 2014]. I was like, “We’ve got to get Shaka here. He’s the perfect fit.” He’s the most important hire since Al McGuire. I really believe that – not just for who he is, but what he does and everything else. He’s from here. He knows the people here. And Shaka is not one of those coaches that takes a job to look for the next job. He’s never been that. He takes the job to do the best job that he can do at the place that he’s at, and I think that’s important.
SS: There’s an old saying in coaching: Sports are simple, people are complicated. So the most complicated parts of our jobs are not X’s and O’s. They’re not, what drill are we going to do in practice tomorrow? It’s figuring out the people part of it and making sure that the group we’re responsible for works well together. Being a fan of [Rivers] before I even met him, it’s fun to follow all the different teams. And now you’ve coached 100 teams. [Both laugh.]
I remember sitting down with him briefly when he first got here last season. It was like a mile a minute – he had to figure out “I’ve got all these assistant coaches still here, and I’ve got my people I want to bring in. Literally, we got a game tomorrow.” What a unique situation.
This is a special moment in time for me, being at Marquette, to have him here as a resource. There are a lot of terrific former players at Marquette, you know, from the Al McGuire days all the way through Tyler Kolek and Oso Ighodaro, who just got drafted in the NBA Draft. But only one of them has gone on to this type of success in coaching.
A few years ago, we had a donor function and Coach happened to be in town with the Sixers for a game the next day, so he was able to stop by. And I remember walking in and thinking, this is not necessarily where he would choose to be. He’s in the middle of this season. It’s February. He had a game yesterday, and he’s got a game tomorrow. But that’s how he feels about Marquette.
MM: Coach Rivers, how do you think he’s doing at becoming a Marquette guy?
DR: Oh, he’s amazing. The culture that Shaka’s about, that’s going to breed [more success]. If you’re a kid, yes, you want to come here. But if you’re a parent, you want your kids to play here because everything’s done right, and he shepherds that – he makes sure that it’s done that way.
[Before the draft,] Kolek came in to work out, and there were like 20 people – all the coaches, a couple of his teammates – in the balcony watching the workout. I have never seen that, and I thought it was awesome.
SS: College basketball, and I’m sure the NBA to some extent, has changed into such a transactional world. We’re really trying to continue to promote caring about each other. The more these guys truly care about each other, the more they’re going to run through a wall for each other. That’s something about Marquette that I really appreciate, is that you can cultivate relationships and caring.
Age: 47
Born: Madison
As a player: A four-year starter and three-year team captain at Division III Kenyon College in Ohio, where he still holds single-season and career records for assists.
As a coach: Worked 10 seasons as an assistant coach at Pennsylvania Western-California, Akron, Clemson and Florida and was director of basketball operations at Dayton. Joined Virginia Commonwealth in 2009 and made the NCAA tournament five of his six seasons, including a Final Four berth as an 11 seed in 2011. Hired by Texas in 2015 and made the NCAA tournament just three of six seasons. Joined Marquette in March 2021. Under Smart, the Golden Eagles are 75-30 (.714), have made the NCAA Tournament all three seasons and won the Big East in 2022-23.
Family: Wife, Maya, and daughter, Zora
MM: Coach Rivers, the world of college sports has changed a lot since you were a player, since you started coaching, even since your kids were going through that world.
DR: Oh, it’s changed completely. The NBA is interesting – we want to try to change AAU [Amateur Athletic Union] and how kids are playing. We want to actually teach them how to play basketball. In Europe right now, kids play once a week and practice five to six days a week. In the US, they play five games a week, and they don’t practice. They don’t get better, you know? And you can see the difference when European players come into the NBA.
I look back like, what if I had an IO* when I played? Would I be a different person? I think yes. I couldn’t imagine a kid from Chicago, from Maywood, coming in as a freshman and having a million dollars. I just don’t know if I’d have been able to handle it, you know? I think it’s a great thing that these kids are marketing and making money, but boy, I was really immature and young, and I don’t know if that’s changed or not. I don’t know if an 18-year-old is still just an 18-year-old [today].
SS: Well, kids are still young. If the reasons why you came to Marquette – or why anyone chose a school – are now superseded by, in my opinion, short-sighted reasons, then it might hurt you long term. There’s still an incredible intangible value that you get from the education of being at a place. I’m not even talking about the degree, I’m talking about the education.
But if the bottom line is only NIL* – that’s certainly a factor, but if that’s only NIL – then it takes away from maybe some of the things that are going to help someone become the best version of themselves. You want to go from being down here [holds his hand low] as a freshman to ready to take on the world by the time you leave. And then victory, winning. You want to be a part of winning when you’re in college.
That’s important.
DR: I’m listening to Shaka and thinking, why did I choose Marquette? There was no NIL, there was no money coming to me. I was the No. 1 or No. 2 player in the whole country, and I chose Marquette because I love Rick Majerus, Hank Raymonds and Al McGuire. I wanted to go somewhere close to home, but I didn’t want to be home, you know? And so Milwaukee was a perfect town for me, because my parents could come watch me play.
That allows me to come to a school and be committed to the school and be committed to winning. And players in the NBA, it’s getting similar in some ways. When you get a guy that comes to your team just for the money, the loyalty and the commitment is just not the same. But when you get a guy to come to your school for you, and then he gets all the other stuff, then winning is the driving force. And it’s a complete different mindset. You know, it’s [like a] mercenary against a guy who joined the Marines.
SS: It’s one of the reasons that we don’t take a lot of transfers. We want to find the 16-year-old version of [Rivers] and cultivate an incredible relationship with him and his parents.
MM: We’re talking about choosing where you go, and you had the opportunity to do that last year, Coach Rivers. There’s a lot of reasons to come into this building, including some great players. But you talked a lot about Milwaukee itself being a factor.
DR: Yeah, I was done [with coaching]. Well, I don’t think I was done – I thought I was going to coach again, but I was only going to coach in a situation that I thought fit me. And just organizationally, that may have started with the biggest draw. I mean, we have Giannis, and those guys had a big pull, but the organization had to be right as well.
I was going to come to a place where I thought it was a perfect fit. The town of Milwaukee, for me, because I went to Marquette, that was important. I took the job thinking, wow, this will be cool, I get to go back. But when I got here, it meant way more – it felt like, man, I’m home. And if I can end my career with a title, it would be the greatest career ever, for me. And that takes on a very important meaning – it drives you. It gave me new life. And I didn’t know that. I didn’t take it for that, and that has happened.
MM: Was there a moment when you really realized that?
DR: The first day I was there, [the Golden Eagles] were playing a game, and they put me out on the floor, which Shaka knows I absolutely dislike. But it is what it is, and man – the fans are chanting “We are Marquette.” And what struck me about that is, when I looked at the fans, there were a lot of the same alumni. They were there when I played! They were pointing at me, I’m pointing at them, and it made me feel this sort of connection that I couldn’t get anywhere [else].
The only place I can get that is here. I remember walking off the floor thinking, man, I’m gonna do everything I can to get this right, because if we can – I mean, winning that title [with the Boston Celtics in 2008] was awesome. But winning a title here, for me, would be – I mean, I can’t imagine how special that would be. And now I have that fire. It’s always good to have a fire, and it’s always good to have renewed goals, because when you reach goals, you have to find something else to chase. And now I have it.
SS: There’s a pride that Marquette fans have in Doc Rivers. And every game during the national anthem, I look up at [his] retired jersey. Every game I look up there, I see your number. It’s good perspective for me, because I think about those teams, and I think about, because I’m a coach, the guys that coached those guys – Coach McGuire is up there, Hank Raymonds is up there.
MM: Fans know they’re seeing something special when they watch Giannis. What do you see as a coach?
SS: I see a very special spirit, and that allows him to impact people in a really special way. I mean, his physical gifts are one of a kind, but his spirit, his mind and his drive are even more impressive than his physical talents.
DR: His character stands up. He has incredible drive. You know, when you look at his background and what he’s gone through in his life – I mean, everyone has a story, sure, but his story is remarkable. And the fact that he’s made it through, literally, the streets in Greece to the NBA – he plays like somebody is trying to take it back away from him. That’s how you feel, coaching him. And that energy is what leads our team. Even though I had this high standard for him [when I saw him] as an outsider, it’s even better in person. He’s far more emotional about the game than I ever knew.
MM: As a coach, do you have to manage that?
DR: There’s an old saying, I’d rather kindle a fire than start one. With Giannis, there are times you have to kindle the fire, which is what every coach wants to do. But his fire is inside.
MM: You both had disappointing ends to your seasons last year. As a coach, as a person, what do you do with it? Do you just lock it up?
DR: That’s part of life. You don’t lock it up. I’ve won a lot, but I’ve lost too, and it’s just part of your journey. You learn. I don’t prescribe that you learn from losing only. You can learn a lot from winning as well. But you just stay in there. You stay in the arena because you love it, and it gives you more drive – especially when you lose when you felt you could win. Every year, you lose something.
Bill Belichick said probably the sickest line I’ve ever heard from a coach: “At the end of the year, you either land the plane smoothly, or you have a crash landing.” There’s no other landing. Now, wow, that’s a lot of crash landings. It’s funny, in the NBA – and probably the same in college, especially if you expect to go deep [in the postseason] – when you are out, you walk in your house the next day and you’re like, what am I doing? There’s nothing to do tomorrow, and it’s just an emptiness.
Age: 63
Born: Chicago
As a player: One of the nation’s top recruits out of high school, played three years at Marquette before being drafted by the Atlanta Hawks in 1983. Played 14 seasons in the NBA, including eight with Atlanta, where he was an All-Star in 1988.
As a coach: After retiring as a player in 1996, spent three years as a TV broadcaster before joining the Orlando Magic as head coach. He spent five seasons in Orlando (.504 winning percentage), nine in Boston (2004-13, .577), where he won the 2008 NBA championship, seven with the Los Angeles Clippers (2013-20, .631), three with Philadelphia (2020-23, .653) and the last half-season in Milwaukee (.474). This season will be his 26th. He was named one of the top 15 coaches in NBA history by a panel of current and former coaches in 2021.
Family: Divorced. Sons Jeremiah, Austin and Spencer all played college basketball; Austin spent 11 seasons in the NBA with seven teams; Spencer is on the Bucks staff as an assistant. Daughter Callie played volleyball at Florida and is married to longtime NBA player Seth Curry.
MM: I mean, the fans feel the same way.
SS: I think that everybody deals with it differently, and people might not care or look at it this way, but we’re people first before we’re coaches, and nobody wants to win more than the coach. I can promise you, as much as anyone else in this room, players included, want to win – nobody wants to win more than a coach. One of the reasons that being a head coach can be a lonely position is that nobody quite understands all the nuances that go into winning or losing the way that the head coach does. Even the assistant coaches don’t always fully understand that.
I’ve had to develop maybe a thicker skin over time for other people’s opinions and just really stay true to what we are here to do. And Coach said it: You can learn from winning, you can learn from losing. One of the things we try to do this time of year is we try to learn a lot of lessons through football, because they’re going through winning and losing right now all around the country, and if we can look at the desperation that they are putting into every game – well, that’s wartime, which we’re going to be in in a matter of weeks.
MM: What are you most excited about this season and what is your biggest obstacle?
DR: I’m just excited about having a whole year, you know, the fresh start with this group. I’m really excited that I came in in midseason, because if I had taken a job now, I wouldn’t have known the guys. And now I get to come in and I have some knowledge of who these guys are and how we need to play.
I really believe that to win a title, you have to connect on a different level. You have to kind of lose yourself into the team and give yourself up. If we do that, we have a legitimate shot at winning. And I guess every coach’s fear is always injury, because it just changes everything. I mean, last year in the playoffs, we didn’t have Giannis and Dame [Damian Lillard], you know, we were not going to win.
SS: I’m excited about the opportunity for growth. We lost two of the very best players to play at Marquette in last decade or so off of last year’s team [Kolek and Ighodaro], and in addition to being great players, they were about as mature as people that I’ve ever been around. So it felt like we were losing two 30-year-olds, even though they were 20, 21, 22.
We’re fortunate – everyone else came back, and then we brought in three freshmen, but our team now feels younger because we lost these two adults, and I’m really excited about the process – each of our guys individually, and then collectively – of growth. And that’s fun, because basketball season is long. Ours isn’t quite as long as the NBA, but still, six months from now, we hope to be playing. And we’ve already started practice – so that’s a long stretch. It’s the process of just being significantly better in January than you were in November and in March than you were in January.
